Building and owning an audience is powerful. You’re able to effectively motivate action, change ideas and perceptions about the market, and coral your fans if you have an audience. The question then remains. How do you actually develop an audience?
This episode of The Long Game is part of our Kitchen Side series, where we show you behind the scenes discussions, brainstorms, and decision making processes that happen at our content marketing agency, Omniscient Digital.
In this episode, Omniscient Digital’s co-founders Allie Decker and Alex Birkett discuss how to build an audience and a passionate following.
Jimmy Daly, former Content Marketing Director at Animalz, wrote an article called “Your Blog is Not a Publication”. Most blogs won’t develop a big audience of passionate followers who read every post chronologically, but you can certainly set your blog up to be a reference library that answers searchers questions and converts those who are delighted.
The problem, however, is that some creators and businesses can build audiences and can act as publications. In the best case scenario, your blog acts as both a library AND a publication -- think HubSpot, Intercom, CXL, etc.
In most of our client work, we pursue a Barbell Strategy with about 70-85% of our work being driven by the “library” model. We pursue strategic keywords, build links, and hope to convert searchers on individual posts.
However, building and owning an audience is powerful. You’re able to effectively motivate action, change ideas and perceptions about the market, and coral your fans if you have an audience.
The question then remains. How do you actually develop an audience?
Hope you enjoy this episode of The Long Game podcast.
Connect with Omniscient Digital on social:
Twitter: @beomniscient
Linkedin: Be Omniscient
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Episode 008 Audience Development
[00:00:00] Alex: [00:00:00] Hello? Hello, this is Alex Burkett, and you're listening to the long game podcast. In this episode, we talk about audience development. It's part of our kitchen side series, where we show you the behind the scenes discussions, brainstorms and decision-making processes that happen at our content marketing agency.
[00:00:16] Omniscient digital. Now, when Jimmy Daly wrote an article a few years ago called your blog is a library, not a publication. I was stoked. Most blogs, won't develop a big audience of passionate followers who read every single post chronologically, but you can certainly set your blog up to be a reference library that effectively answers searcher's questions and converts those readers who are delighted the problem.
[00:00:38] However, is that some creators and some businesses can and do build audiences and can, and do act as publications in the best case scenario, your blog can act as both a library and a publication. I think companies like HubSpot, Intercom CXL et cetera. In most of our client work. And most of our strategy we pursue, what's known as a barbell [00:01:00] strategy with about 70 to 85% of our, of our work of our keywords of our content being driven by the library model.
[00:01:07] We pursue strategic keywords. We build links and we hope to convert searchers on individual blog posts. The remaining 20%. Uh, more or less is what we call buzz-worthy content. Now that is more experimental content and it could be to drive links and it could be to drive social shares and it could be to build an audience.
[00:01:25] So overall building an audience and owning an audience is powerful stuff. If you're able to do so, you can effectively motivate action, change ideas and perceptions about the market in general, and corral your fans. If you have an audience, the question then remains. How do you actually develop an audience?
[00:01:43] And so what follows is a discussion between me and my co-founder Allie Decker about that subject. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the long game podcast.
[00:02:03] [00:02:00] all right. So the topic is audience building. Or audience development. And I can't remember exactly how I stumbled upon this idea, but it was two or three days ago. And I think I saw a tweet or something talking about, um, you know, building followers and creating trust. And, um, I think it actually had something to do with the real over-reliance on search engines for distribution and how to decouple from that.
[00:02:26] Now as an agency, we index pretty heavily on search engines, but we also have this bucket called buzz-worthy content, which I think is. In our primary view, it's focused at building links or getting social shares, but I think it's the type of content that also caters towards building an audience. So I wanted to write an article all about how, like how do you even build an audience there?
[00:02:50] Like what does it even mean? I mean, to have an audience, I think that's a fundamental question I want to cover. So I wrote down some questions to help me structure this with the article that I'm writing. [00:03:00] So first off, what does it mean to quote, build an audience or to follow somebody? So you
[00:03:07] Allie: [00:03:07] from the writer side or the consumer side
[00:03:11] Alex: [00:03:11] either way, I mean, what does it mean when you, when you follow somebody, what does that mean to you
[00:03:17] Allie: [00:03:17] personally?
[00:03:18] That means I bypass Google and I look at what they've written, no matter what the topic is, obviously there's like a general niche or. Topic consistency, but I appreciate the way that they think and the way that they approach whatever they're writing about that I will become interested in it based on what they've recently published.
[00:03:41] Um, I have a handful of writers that I. Check in on or follow because I just, I call them good thinkers. I like the way they think. I like the way that they write. And it's kind of the same, like the article I shared with you, like how you have a favorite author, their newest book, you're going to buy it doesn't [00:04:00] matter what it's about.
[00:04:01] I kind of think that that translates more into blogging and writing online than anybody can admit, because so many things are just query based, keyword based, which there's value to that. But I think building up a reading habit outside of Google alone is incredibly powerful.
[00:04:22] Alex: [00:04:22] When you say check in with, does that mean that you follow them on Twitter?
[00:04:25] Does that mean that you go to their website? Are you subscribed to their email list? I guess I'm looking more tactically, like to be a creator with an audience. Like what does an audience actually mean? Gosh,
[00:04:35] Allie: [00:04:35] when I say check it, I mean, I do all of the above, whatever. They've got to keep themselves top of mind.
[00:04:41] Um, I'll do it. I like, I love, um, a writer named Steph Smith. She runs. And I think she runs a newsletter over at the hustle, but I don't follow the hustle, but I check in on her blog, like at least once a week, hoping that she's got something new, doesn't matter what it's. I mean, she writes about everything from tech to remote work, to like [00:05:00] women in tech to writing itself.
[00:05:03] All of it is relevant to me because I appreciate her point of view and I love the way she writes and I, I essentially want to be here. So I feel like that like fuels so much of my inspiration is like, who is someone that I would love to switch places with? Um, It doesn't matter what they're writing about, just cause I love their approach, but yeah, I mean, she's got an email newsletter I'm on that.
[00:05:23] I follow her on Twitter anywhere that they share themselves and keep themselves top of mind. That's why constituted
[00:05:32] Alex: [00:05:32] following. Yeah. I think what I was getting at is the following aspect is a little bit more nebulous than a lot of people would consider. So when you're measuring something, um, precision is a big, a big factor, right?
[00:05:45] Like how, how precise can you measure a given moment and like, count that and log that in your kind of like dashboard. So like a conversion, if you buy something that's a pretty precise measure, but I think that anything, uh, on the buzzworthy slash branding [00:06:00] side, Including like brand awareness is pretty fuzzy.
[00:06:03] Like what it actually means to be aware of a brand. And in our case, like what it means to be a follower of somebody could have way different definitions, depending on like who they are. And like also what category they fall in. Right. Cause like, I was kind of thinking this out in my own, you know, who I follow and, uh, I have so many different layers and uh, Examples of how I follow people.
[00:06:25] So I kind of layered them out, like, uh, by, uh, how clear it is that I'm a follower. So the first one I gave, I pay for some subscriptions to people, sub stacks. So I pay for, yeah, like I'm giving them money to basically consume what they write. And that would include Matt Taibbi. There's this persuasion community, a lot of like political writers and people who do this full time.
[00:06:50] I just pay them. And that's similar, like we do with John Bonini and his Patrion. Right. So that's like kind of top tier, right? Like we're handing over money for their opinions. And then there's like the next [00:07:00] layer, which is subscribing to somebody's email list. I think. So I subscribe to CXL CXL institutes, uh, email lists, um, there's probably two or three blogs that I subscribe to Joanna Wiebe, uh, several in the CRO space.
[00:07:13] Right. And then I follow people on Twitter. So I think that's also, you know, there's people that I, I wouldn't even consider it. Like some of them are I follow and some of them, I technically follow on Twitter, but I wouldn't consider myself in their audience. That makes sense. Okay. Yeah. So there's, there's people who are just kind of like friends or acquaintances that I, you know, I'm not like waiting for every word they say, but somebody like pep, pep Leia on Twitter.
[00:07:40] I'm, I'm a follower of his, like I'm in his audience. And then further down from that, like there are kind of specific use cases. So there's this website called paleo leap.com and it's all these paleo recipes and I'm not subscribed to their email lists. I don't pay them, but every time I want a new recipe, I go to their website.
[00:07:59] I basically search. [00:08:00] You know, site colon, paleo leap.com and brussel sprouts, or, you know, I'm trying to find recipes in the moment. So it's very context based. And then, uh, Atlas Obscura is this website that, uh, it's like a travel site with only unique and interesting things to do. So whenever I'm in a new city, I'll search, you know, site, colon, Atlas, obscura.com, uh, or Lando or something like that.
[00:08:22] And only go to it in that moment. But I consider myself a follower of those sites too. So
[00:08:27] Allie: [00:08:27] if you follow those sites, why don't you subscribe to their emails?
[00:08:31] Alex: [00:08:31] I don't want any more emails. I get way too many. I'm trying to delete what you need from them. Yeah. And I don't, I don't need like a recipe a day, Atlas Obscura.
[00:08:43] Like, I don't want to know what cool shit there is to do in New Zealand if I'm not there. Right. So it's very context dependent. And actually here's another example. One of my favorite people that I follow is Simo. Ahava who's the godfather of Google tag manager. But I'm not in Google tech manager that often.
[00:08:59] So I don't actually [00:09:00] subscribe to his email list. I think I would pay him if he had a Patrion or something, just because he's that valuable, but I don't need that information all the time. So I go to his website and I, I site search when I need like a specific thing. So there's some things where I don't want to read everything they write, but when I'm searching for a topic that they're known for, I go straight to them.
[00:09:19] Allie: [00:09:19] Interesting. Yeah, I guess that does redefine how I shared it. Then I. I am not like a huge participator in the attention economy. I keep myself like offline if I really don't need anything. So when I consider myself a follower or an audience member, I think of those who I like want to hear everything from, but the way you.
[00:09:45] You know, unpack those layers. I would consider myself a follower of more people. Then going back to the paid aspect. Do you pay folks even when you don't read their stuff or do you read everything you pay for?
[00:09:57] Alex: [00:09:57] No, I definitely people that I [00:10:00] pay for. I don't read all their stuff. I was just thinking about that today.
[00:10:02] I deleted three of Matt Toby's emails, just because I'm so tired of politics and like discussions around that. But you continue
[00:10:09] Allie: [00:10:09] to pay him because you appreciate him and you want to support him.
[00:10:12] Alex: [00:10:12] Yeah. And I'll get value in like read every once in a while, but I simply don't have the time or appetite to read that much about politics, but I do.
[00:10:20] Pardon me? It's almost like a charity. Like I think it's important to fund good independent journalists. So I'll pay for people like that, just because I think it's a good mission to do so. Um, and I like paying creators. I like people who are like putting out good integrity based content regardless of the space, but yeah.
[00:10:37] Yeah, I'm, I'm actually, it's, I'm going through a thing I'm trying to consume way less. Like I don't, I actually don't want to like, read that much new content from anybody. So, but I still want to, I want to contribute to those people who are creating it. So
[00:10:48] Allie: [00:10:48] are there any unpaid emails that you would consider paying for if they, if it was a paid game, if it was like magically, like gated, would you pay for it to keep up with it?
[00:11:00] [00:11:00] Alex: [00:11:00] Possibly the D these are like, um, friends, I would say like Justin mares has a great newsletter and I would probably pay for that. Um, so it's usually solo bloggers or thinkers. Like I probably wouldn't pay for any company updates since they're typically funded via the marketing activities that they're promoting anyway.
[00:11:16] So like, CXL has great information, but behind it is the implicit call to like, buy it. Their products. So I don't feel any compilation. Is that a word? Uh, I don't, I'm not, I don't feel compelled to pay for something like that.
[00:11:32] Allie: [00:11:32] Um, yeah, that might be another reason why some of these folks, like in dear me to them is because it feels so authentic, which in turn makes me want to pay for things because they're not trying to get me to pay for things.
[00:11:45] Um, I don't know if that's something you can capture out of like effort. But, you know, Steph Smith, Julia Shapiro, Nicholas Cole, like some of these folks I follow on Twitter and their emails and their blog.
[00:12:00] [00:12:00] Alex: [00:12:00] Cool. First off, I know Julian Shapiro runs demand curve, who were the others?
[00:12:05] Allie: [00:12:05] Steph Smith, uh, works at the hustle.
[00:12:08] She has a really interesting resume. Um, but I, gosh, how did I, I think I stumbled upon her because she published an article called how to be great. Just be good consistently.
[00:12:20] Alex: [00:12:20] And.
[00:12:22] Allie: [00:12:22] Right. It's so simple, but it's so well-written and she writes super in-depth stuff. And you can tell that she doesn't just like bang it out in a day.
[00:12:30] And then I was like looking at her blog. I was like, first of all, I liked this person. She seems, she seems like someone I would just want to talk to in person anyway. Um, but she also has created all these interesting products. Like she has this website called. Gosh, you know? Yeah. It's a, it's a whole website of untranslatable words.
[00:12:49] And I went right to red bubble and I bought her sticker to support her. And I don't even have it on my computer yet, but it's right here. And then I was reading her blog [00:13:00] and I was like, Oh, I love her writing style. Oh, she's writing about women in tech kind of relevant to me. I'm not like in coding or anything, but I read it anyway and she wrote a whole guide on like her writing style and how she.
[00:13:12] Writes for her blog. And it's just a sense of authenticity that you don't get. I think from a lot of people in line, um, most people who write online God within weeks or months, months, turn it into like a paid thing or they're trying to sell you something that doesn't mean it doesn't have value, but. I don't know.
[00:13:33] I guess I have like an authenticity meter.
[00:13:35] Alex: [00:13:35] Maybe it's a little bit too rigorous. There's two points I want to press on here. One authenticity. I want to come back to that in a second, because I think we could discuss what makes somebody a trustworthy or what makes somebody worth following. But the process that you described of turning yourself into a follower, Steph Smith was her name.
[00:13:54] Okay. So it sounds, you kind of followed like a breadcrumb trail a little bit, like you didn't [00:14:00] know anything about her, you discovered like your first point of contact was probably some viral article. You know, I went to a lot of people and then I don't know if you continued pursuing her other work just naturally, or if you had discovered it, um, serendipitously, but it seemed, it seems like it took a couple of touch points before you were like, fuck.
[00:14:18] Yeah, I have to follow this person.
[00:14:20] Allie: [00:14:20] Yeah, I definitely was. It was. The first post itself, which was interesting to me, obviously, no one can expect everyone to be hooked by that, but I was, I went to her website. I appreciated her background. I thought it was impressive, but it wasn't, it wasn't just impressive.
[00:14:38] It was just like, It was kind of a hodgepodge and I liked it. Like it, wasn't some step by step by step, you know, not that that's right or wrong, but I, I just liked her background. I thought she, I thought she was really interesting. Like I just thought she had lots of passions, lots of interests that came through in her work.
[00:14:54] She created lots of free stuff online, which I thought was interesting too in a world of [00:15:00] gated everything. Um, and then, yeah, I looked at her blog because it was a little bit out of. Kind of how you said a mixture of impro. Like if you were impressed and jealous about Adam's like blog, like success last year, I kind of felt the same thing.
[00:15:15] I was like, dang, like I like her, I want to be her. Like, I wish I could do what she's doing. And I also just really liked the way that she wrote, um, I don't know how
[00:15:27] Alex: [00:15:27] that mimicry, I don't want to call it mimicry, uh, uh, that aspirational aspect you want to be like that person. Do you think that's a key criteria on for becoming a follower of somebody?
[00:15:39] I
[00:15:39] Allie: [00:15:39] mean, yes and no, like. They're like photographers and designers that I don't think I would consider myself at that level of following, but I do like their stuff. I like their work, but I don't want to be a photographer. So. I guess in her case it was front and center for me because she's also a [00:16:00] writer and she writes online.
[00:16:01] So that element not only was it incredibly relevant to me, but it was like very close to how I identify myself and ways in which I'm trying to challenge myself this year. So that was an extra connection point, but yeah. I guess it depends like she also, part of her audience is writers. So I think that was endearing to me as well, but it depends on the content that's being created.
[00:16:30] I'm not, I'm not sure. I wouldn't say that the mimicry aspect is, is a key
[00:16:34] Alex: [00:16:34] thing. Yeah. I think for myself in, in reflecting on who I follow and how passionately and how closely I have different modes of, uh, Different types of membership, different audiences. Some of them are completely utilitarian, Simo Ahava and trying to figure out what to do on Google tag manager is sort of a utilitarian thing.
[00:16:55] I know I'm not going to be as good at Google tag manager and front end development [00:17:00] and engineering as, as he is. And I don't expect to be. And then there's others who I. Look up to aspirationally in a business context. And I would say I read more of their stuff more often and more passively. Like those are the ones that I'm probably going to sign up for their email list and read their books.
[00:17:15] If they come out and consume everything they put out versus trying to seek something when I need it such as paleo leap for recipes or Atlas, Obscura, et cetera, et cetera. So it seems like there is you, you might follow somebody more closely. If you see yourself or something you want to be in them.
[00:17:36] Allie: [00:17:36] Yeah. I definitely think that that's a strong element and building affinity.
[00:17:41] Um, with an audience, but I don't think
[00:17:43] Alex: [00:17:43] it's, they have something that they're delivering in terms of information that, you know, you want in your life. Like I found a new breed of people that I'm following is kind of like yogis and shit. I don't know how to describe this category, but it's like very like mental health kind of therapy focused people.
[00:17:59] So [00:18:00] Tara Brock Gabor Matteo is somebody I recently kind of went down the rabbit hole on. And then weirdly enough, Tucker max, uh, who I read his books in college. I can't believe
[00:18:11] Allie: [00:18:11] that's what he writes about today. I saw him like the first time last year, I was like, wait, you're talking about the Tucker Maximus.
[00:18:17] Person's like, yeah, it's a great book. And I'm like, I don't believe you. I got to go check this out for myself.
[00:18:23] Alex: [00:18:23] Well, I it's so weird. Yeah. Cause I used to read his books kind of like, you know, for entertainment. Yeah. And then he started writing about business and I was like, Oh, this is interesting. Like, I love startups and entrepreneurship, and now he's doing the whole deep dive on therapy and like, basically.
[00:18:36] Going back and, you know, resolving childhood trauma and doing this MTMA therapy and stuff like that. But I read these authors and not just authors and thinkers and whatnot and Gabor Montay. I listen to them on podcasts because there's something that they're saying that I believe can help my own life. I think like they have some piece of information that I know is aspirational.
[00:18:55] Even if them themselves they're like, I don't think I want to be like Tara Brock [00:19:00] or likable Gabor, Montay, but they have something that. Mix it's it's they have a piece of information that will help me lead myself to the place that I want to be, if that makes
[00:19:15] Allie: [00:19:15] sense. Yeah. So they, you don't want to be them, but you know, they can help you be the person that you want to be.
[00:19:21] I think that's what is interesting about this is like everyone has this like a certain lens right on life or on their niche of choice or whatever. And none of it's right or wrong per se. But I think a lot of today's content creation removes that lens. Like that's why so much of what's online is all similar, but it keeps people from connecting with you.
[00:19:55] And then not only following what you're saying, like the information you're sharing, but like, The [00:20:00] perspective that you have, it's like yourself, that's the UVP that you have to share in my opinion, depending on like what you're talking about and like what you're writing about, but I just wish more people could put their own perspective in their writing.
[00:20:18] I guess there's not a place for it in every content creation, but. I dunno, maybe that's, what's missing in a lot of what's out there today.
[00:20:26] Alex: [00:20:26] No, I think you're onto something. Uh, I wish we had a producer cause I have to look this stuff up on my own. Now. I wish we had like a Jamie from like Joe Rogan's podcast.
[00:20:35] Like Jamie pulled that shit up. Uh, said something in his how to get rich tweet. Storm here it is. Uh, you're going to escape competition through authenticity. When you realize that no one can compete with you on being you, that would have been useless advice. Pre-internet but post-internet, you can turn that into a career.
[00:20:53] He said multiple things like this escape competition through authenticity, he's got a full blog post about that. [00:21:00] That's essentially
[00:21:00] Allie: [00:21:00] Emerson self-reliance, but very, very simplified
[00:21:03] Alex: [00:21:03] writing. Yeah. It's, it's very difficult to, I mean, it's easy advice to give and it's very difficult to exhibit. I think like, be yourself, like, what does that actually mean?
[00:21:13] But finding who you uniquely are and who you authentically are, and being confident to portray that is a good way to build an audience. I think like when you're trying to be somebody else or trying to like hit that, uh, mediocre middle, you might rank in search, but nobody's going to give a shit. Well, I just think
[00:21:29] Allie: [00:21:29] that.
[00:21:31] Mimicry is more rewarded than ever today, especially if the writing, like a lot of the strategy that's created is based on page one of Google. Like obviously we want to make Google happy as people say, but I don't believe that that can create an audience or a following or affinity with people. Whenever you want.
[00:21:54] It's
[00:21:54] Alex: [00:21:54] also, it's not effective either. Everybody's already ranking on page one, like how you have to have some strength that you're [00:22:00] leaning on that is going to tell Google's algorithm that you're worthy of out of usurping those 10 that are already ranking there. So if you have a higher domain rating, then you can just publish mediocre shit all day and like rank those that have less domain rating.
[00:22:12] Right. But you kind of have to make it better or different in order for that strategy to work in the first place.
[00:22:17] Allie: [00:22:17] I think about like the person that's Googling something, right? Like they are Googling some query how to do X this versus this. You might catch them on a good day when they're like, this person is cool.
[00:22:31] I'm going to subscribe to the email. But I believe most times they just want an answer. They're not in a place. They're not going to be open to like another email or another. Follow-up like, they're not in the mindset to become a follower and audience member they might convert. Does that make them a follower?
[00:22:49] I don't know. That's a whole other conversation.
[00:22:51] Alex: [00:22:51] Um, That's interesting. Yeah. That's kind of the opposite of like you not subscribing, but still being an audience member. But in this case [00:23:00] you have subscribed, you have converted, but you're kind of not an audience. Yeah,
[00:23:03] Allie: [00:23:03] exactly. Like this person solved my problem.
[00:23:06] This person gave me this. I bought this. Do I care about the brand or does the consumer care about the brand outside of what they got from them? Probably not. Maybe. I don't know, but I think if you just create page one content over and over again, To make money, right? Like that's still has a purpose, but this all comes back to like customer loyalty, customer retention.
[00:23:27] Like it's the same vibe, this whole like audience development, like building a following. It's all pretty much, at least in the same lane. Um, And now how do you create content and how do you, how do you become discovered if not through Google in a way that does help you create that affinity? I don't know.
[00:23:47] Maybe social media, like, I'm not, I'm not sure maybe being
[00:23:51] Alex: [00:23:51] yourself. Oh, okay. So like writing for the first page of Google, it seems like that is. You're trying to appease like the median on the bell curve. Like [00:24:00] you're going for like, what is clearly expected from customers. So you can't write to two different of stuff you might re write on a topic about, say customer satisfaction.
[00:24:09] That's the keyword. You look at everything else that ranks and try to fit that format and maybe add a little spin and taste. Um, but it's mostly the same. Can you, I mean, Let's say somebody searches lands on your page for that keyword. Two days later, they searched for a separate thing. They land on your website for a different keyword.
[00:24:26] They do that three or four more times and they start to say, huh, omniscient seems what they know. It seems like they know what they're talking about. Is that a way of audience building? It seems like through mere repetition and satisfactory answers, you start to build trust. I
[00:24:40] Allie: [00:24:40] would say yes. Yeah. I mean, here's, here's in talking more about the granular, like content production process, which is where I live.
[00:24:48] Creating content. That's just like what's on Google to get there. Won't set you apart from the other pages. I think that people [00:25:00] should start with writing what they think they should write and SEO. I don't know how this going to go over. It should be a secondary edition. Now, most of the stuff we write, even from like a thought leadership perspective as a founders or partners or whatever.
[00:25:18] It's going to map back to a keyword, right? Because when most, in most circumstances, or at least we can like tweak the topic, tweak the title to match a keyword of some sort. I'm sure audience development has a decent MSV, but the heart of the piece didn't come from the first page of Google. Like it came from like your opinion, your experiences, your stories, this conversation, therefore it's naturally going to be different.
[00:25:41] Like, because it's just coming from you like your perspective, your UVP, as I called it, like. That's why I think so much of what's out there is the same, because literally the source of it, the heart of that idea came from what's already out there now there's definitely time and place for that. Like there's value to that.
[00:25:58] More of the transactional side of [00:26:00] things, obviously like the repetition, but I think that the heart of these content ideas, if you can afford it and have the time and energy they should come from, you come from us.
[00:26:11] Alex: [00:26:11] When you say UVP, is that unique value proposition or unique viewpoint, or
[00:26:18] Allie: [00:26:18] I was thinking value prop, but those definitely work.
[00:26:22] Alex: [00:26:22] Gotcha. Yeah. I think that makes sense to me. It's also a hundred percent accurate how this topic came up. I, again, I don't remember the seed of where the idea came from, but it certainly wasn't keyword research. And I was like, thinking about the question of how to build an audience. So I think I was looking at sub stack creators and.
[00:26:40] You know, wondering how to build audiences or whatever. Um, and then I looked at AA traps and figured out that audience development was the keyword with like 200 search volume. But I didn't know that beforehand. So I basically had the idea from an insight and map that to a keyword post-talk and that's actually, we used to do that at CX all the time, which I think CXL is a great example of a B2B company.
[00:26:59] That's built [00:27:00] a better audience than most companies have. A lot of them have done. I mean, CXL does crush it with SEO now. But when I was there, we were basically taking pain points and questions from people who read the blog and people who spoke at conferences and our own, you know, experiences with clients and, and running AB tests.
[00:27:18] And we would write about those subjects and we actually didn't even care about SEO for the longest time too. You know, halfway through my time at CXL we started to map things to keywords, but we wrote content that people. People were subscribed. They would read every blog post. And if we wrote one thing wrong, they would try to correct us.
[00:27:35] Like we had that type of an audience. That's a
[00:27:37] Allie: [00:27:37] following. So how did you hear back from these folks? Did they email you? Did you have
[00:27:41] Alex: [00:27:41] this comments on the blogs? They would tweet us, you know, however they could get in touch. I definitely
[00:27:47] Allie: [00:27:47] think that's another element of the following a similar, yes, because not only can you make your audience.
[00:27:57] Feel like it's more of a relationship than just like this [00:28:00] one way mirror, but you also create a path where you can learn from them and then write what they want to hear. Again, it's probably reflected on SEO. Yeah. It's probably a function of SEO. SEO is powerful. It tells us what people are searching for what they need, what they want, but it shouldn't, it shouldn't be like the beginning of your thought process.
[00:28:22] Like step one, look at what page one of Google, like, ah, But creating like a two way street with your followers, your audience members, it's the best kind of feedback. I mean, customers alone, like so many ideas, so many perspectives, so many questions, and then it starts to be like, you're creating for them.
[00:28:41] And then they stick around and all this stuff. I mean,
[00:28:45] Alex: [00:28:45] do you think it's always possible or even always desirable to build an audience? If you're a content marketer?
[00:28:53] Allie: [00:28:53] Man. I don't know about like a personal audience.
[00:28:56] Alex: [00:28:56] No, no. I'm saying like for your company or for yourself. I [00:29:00] mean, if it's for yourself, like, I feel like you kind of have to build an audience, um, because you're trying to attract people to you.
[00:29:07] But if you're working for, uh, a kitchen appliances company, like, do you need to build it on audience and audience
[00:29:13] Allie: [00:29:13] separate from the group of customers you have? Is that your question or your customers, your
[00:29:18] Alex: [00:29:18] audience. No, we can, we can, we got to delineate those two customers. Are people buying your shit?
[00:29:23] I'm not like an audience member of, uh, I have like these water filter things. Like, I don't know who makes them, like, I'm a customer, but I'm not an audience member. Uh, I would say, I don't know how to describe that, but no,
[00:29:36] Allie: [00:29:36] I know what you mean. I mean, there's lots of
[00:29:38] Alex: [00:29:38] stuff around here that I have a fan, right.
[00:29:40] It's like an informational, like consumer of sorts. Right?
[00:29:44] Allie: [00:29:44] I would say. To to drive like revenue. No, but it can only help. I think having an audience, maybe it's not a necessity, but it can only help because [00:30:00] a, it drives word of mouth. Like you've got interesting stuff. You're posting asking your customer, asking your readers.
[00:30:07] Excuse me. It's going to start conversations, drive word of mouth. That's the audience. Those are the audience members that probably buy like water bottle stickers, or like put Yeti stickers on their computers. Like they might have one Yeti water bottle, but they love the, any blog. They love Yeti stuff.
[00:30:24] Like that's an audience and like that's not hurting. I don't think anything. It's just complimenting their base of customers and creating like loyalty, repetition and like purchases. I think it also creates an easier feedback loop or writing to those customer pain
[00:30:43] Alex: [00:30:43] points. Yet Yeti is a great example of a kind of boring product that created a passionate fan base.
[00:30:49] So point taken on that one. I think that is, um, kind of the exception that proves the rule in a way in that it's not always. [00:31:00] It's always possible to create an audience, but it's not always desirable or feasible or has like a, a, a direct cause of pathway. Right. So I think, I think you can stretch yourself and try and try to build passionate fans and it could fail.
[00:31:13] So I think it's one of those activities that come from this, uh, The bucket on the barbell strategy, that's a bit more variable and a little, little less predictable. So I think if, as you're doing your normal marketing activities, you happen through repetition and through a good quality through a unique style.
[00:31:30] If you happen to build an audience, I think that is all upside, but I think just pursuing that angle of building an audience. It's a risky strategy by itself. Well, it can't
[00:31:39] Allie: [00:31:39] be a strategy or it's going to overwork itself. It's going to be, because what's going to happen with strategies. You're going to do your research.
[00:31:47] How did this person build audience? What did they say? How did they write it? It's not going to be you. I mean, it might work, but like anytime you start to use, Hey, look to them for inspiration. How did they do this? [00:32:00] You're going to start even subconsciously like mimicking their voice, mimicking their stuff.
[00:32:05] It might work for a little bit, but the longevity of an audience comes from literally just doing whatever the hell you feel like doing now. That was an aggressive way to say it.
[00:32:15] Alex: [00:32:15] But actually I think you're, I think you're right. I think there is a clash between strategy and meticulousness and building a true audience because I think, um, this is something I've learned from.
[00:32:26] I don't know if Joe Rogan has talked about this on his podcast, but he's been interviewed by other people about the making of his podcast. And he is who knows. I mean, maybe this is just a talking point, but he's adamant that he doesn't look at metrics. He doesn't think about like what he's saying. He basically just has the conversations he wants to have with the people he wants to have them with.
[00:32:45] Yep. And that's the only way he knows to operate. And he knows deep down that if he veers from that, if he looks at the metrics, if he takes inputs, if you like takes feedback from people around him, producers and stuff, that the magic's going to be lost. So I think he's trying to protect the authenticity [00:33:00] at all costs.
[00:33:01] Allie: [00:33:01] Yes. I mean, I don't listen to his podcast, but like I know about him. I know his deal and like, I'm sure. If I wanted to listen to podcasts, I would definitely listen to his because like, he doesn't give a crap about anything. Like he just brings people on and he talks about whatever. And not only are you in dear to his product, his podcast, but him as a person, like you want to know whatever he's saying about whatever it doesn't matter.
[00:33:25] Does his podcast even have like a topic consistency of any sort.
[00:33:29] Alex: [00:33:29] No. I mean, he's got like bingo card items where he he'll repeat the same things over and over, but I think that's just like, I think that's also an idiosyncrasy of Joe Rogan is he'll just like, you know, constantly bring up DMT and whatever.
[00:33:43] I
[00:33:43] Allie: [00:33:43] just feel like our creator economy, it would be so much more interesting. It's already very interesting, but so much more interesting if people just stopped looking at other people, this might be a whole other conversation that we should have, but. It's hard. I mean, [00:34:00] it's harder than ever. I just wrote another essay on this the other day.
[00:34:02] It's like harder than ever to be yourself, because we are like drowned in all of these sheds and codes and strategies and hacks and tips. And it's just like, of course, that stuff is valuable. Like success stories are great and people deserve to be like, share how they did it. And yes, we pick up something here and something Mayer things that infuse our own strategy, but.
[00:34:26] Over time, like doing too much of that, it's, you're going to lose that voice or you're going to feel like your voice isn't good enough, or you're going to feel like your ideas. Aren't good enough. And I mean, I'm speaking from direct experience. So sometimes I wish I could just shut
[00:34:42] Alex: [00:34:42] everything off personally, thinking now over the years, I've read all these books on like, Even like small books on persuasion, like how to win friends and influence people, or like, you know, psychology books or business success books.
[00:34:55] And I think it was a process via insecurity and also via ignorance of like trying to [00:35:00] layer on knowledge and the additive figuring out how did they do it and how can I like incorporate some of that into my life. And I think some of that is beneficial, but now I almost feel like now, especially when we're doing the podcast and now that we're branching out with omniscient.
[00:35:13] It's been more a process of subtraction and figuring out, well, what is the authentic take me and like how, and I think you're totally spot on with that. It's very hard. So what's the, what's the secret to building an audience? A passionate and loyal followers speaking. What's the formula, email
[00:35:34] Allie: [00:35:34] subscribers.
[00:35:35] So I surely know the answer.
[00:35:37] Alex: [00:35:37] Well, when you think about the people that you follow, what is it about them? It seems like authenticity is the big ticket. Just be yourself, but it's not just that, you know, it's like, and not everybody that's just themselves and just authentic. Like you don't follow all of them.
[00:35:52] No. So there's some semblance of like quality or like, yeah. I mean,
[00:35:57] Allie: [00:35:57] there's giving him something, the aspect, like, uh, like [00:36:00] an effort. I mean, they're not just themselves with abandon, like they still try to align something. Um, I mean, going back to stuff like her writing is very good. Her ideas are very good.
[00:36:15] I mean, more than just being a good writer, she's just a cool thinker. Like I've, I've started to admire that over anything lately because you know, right. You know, we've heard writing is thinking essentially, and there's so much out there that makes me think less and less, like with less quality, like I want wanna, I want to be a better thinker.
[00:36:37] I wanna. Manage my own ideas, my own perspective with a little bit more grace. So people who can do it themselves, and that inherently teaches me how to think better. So yeah, there's definitely a quality aspect to it, but I don't know if there's like a prescription really.
[00:36:52] Alex: [00:36:52] I mean, there's a interesting thing you said.
[00:36:55] I don't know if this relates to audience building at all, but about, uh, reading stuff that makes you [00:37:00] think less well, this concept, uh, I think we've talked about recently about, uh, If things are boring or neutral, like if, if you have to sit in a meeting and it's not necessarily hard, but it's also not easier fun, it's not just that it's neutral.
[00:37:12] It actually subtracts energy from your next, uh, whatever you were going to do next. And even the next day, sometimes David cabbie talked about that in his book, my management. And, uh, he, I think he had a study where if you have a busy schedule on today, like you're actually less creative the next day and the rest of the week.
[00:37:29] So I've started to look at things not as neutral, neutral is negative to me now, basically, if it, if it's not adding value than it actually is actively subtracting value, even if it appears neutral, like that's something that I've recently.
[00:37:42] Allie: [00:37:42] I just don't think that anything is neutral. I mean, when it comes to creativity, I think that.
[00:37:48] Unless you're in this moment is flow creative energy takes 1.5 or two X of your normal energy. At least to get started, like start starting the [00:38:00] car, like whatever. Like, it takes a lot of energy. Now, once you get rolling, like things might feel easier, but you come out of this creative flow and you do your admin task, admin task meeting, meeting, meeting, you can context switch right back to where you were.
[00:38:13] I mean, you have an allotment of energy every day, every week it's going to be spent on something. And if it's not like in the creative realm, that energy is gone. So yeah, I mean, there are definitely things that are more neutral than negative, but in the scheme of things, I think neutral. Is negative.
[00:38:30] Alex: [00:38:30] I actually, I think I would rather have a neutral or I would rather have a negative in my life than a neutral cause at least negative is interesting and has valence, whereas neutral.
[00:38:40] I would rather hang out with like an asshole or like somebody who I dislike as opposed to somebody who's just like completely not adding value at all. And like, I think the same thing about content when I, when I watch a movie, if it's just like middle ground middlebrow, like that's the worst, like I would way rather watch, um, What was that movie?
[00:38:58] That James [00:39:00] Franco spoofed the room. It was the worst movie ever created. Did you see this? No, I tend to avoid rated the worst. Nope. But it was so bad that it was good. It was like a cult classic, um, not shark NATO stuff. Yeah. Stuff like that. So it's so terrible that it actually is. Value additive because of that, but like a neutral movie.
[00:39:22] That's forgettable, like get that out of my life. That's just a waste of time. Yeah. So there maybe is like something edict, at least. I don't know if this is a formula, but be interesting. I think is one thing you can't do without if you're building a true audience, not just a utilitarian. Like I go to this website when I need to fix my car.
[00:39:43] That's not necessarily an audience. I think it's veering towards it if it's the same website every time. But I think being interesting is probably as close to non-negotiable as we can get. And I think also probably some quality indicator too. I don't know what that would be.
[00:39:58] Allie: [00:39:58] If you think about it from like a [00:40:00] consumer reader audience member perspective, like.
[00:40:03] We, we are followers some more than we realize. I can't think of anything off the top of our head, but I'm sure there's some normal, boring website that we all prefer to go to because it happens any more interesting than its competitors kind of fill our docket with followings regardless. So even if you are a car maintenance website or I don't know, a water filter website, like you might as well add some spice.
[00:40:30] Like, I don't think it can take anything away from what you're doing. Like I said, like, you don't have to try to build an audience, but I don't think it's going to hurt. Maybe it'll be more expensive. You have to hire like an audience builder, like a writer or something. Like maybe it'll take a little bit more to see ROI on it, but all it's going to do is.
[00:40:47] Endear yourself to people who come and try to like they convert. And they're like, Oh, this is really funny. Or this is really interesting. Like, I think it only adds
[00:40:55] Alex: [00:40:55] you actually, I just thought of something. So I think being interesting as one component, [00:41:00] but I just thought of one of those resource websites.
[00:41:02] When you were saying that about car, car websites, I go to the site, examine.com all the time when I'm looking for information on supplements. And it's not interesting. It's just like, Summarized information on different studies done, you know, say if I'm looking up healthy and eating or something like that, they say this has been shown to promote relaxation or folk, uh, kind of the meta analysis of all the studies that have been done.
[00:41:27] So I like that because it's useful. It's not entertaining. It's not unique. I guess it is unique in how they summarize information. But I think there's another pillar to this. Um, You know what it is, it's trust. I trust that I can go to their website and I'm not going to get bullshit information. And I think trust is built through repetition and consistency.
[00:41:45] So that's where it comes in. Where, like, you know, we were talking about the website, you see like six different times on Google after a while you start to say, Hmm, these guys seem to know what they're talking about. I'm starting to trust them, but to get to the top of Google, they have to have some sort of.
[00:42:00] [00:42:00] Utility, they have to have some sort of useful information and that maybe the quality component and SEO and totally. So we're coming up with some, something like a formula. I think trust, I think trust is the biggest factor. Now that I said that out loud. It's like all the people that you're talking about, whether you pay for them, whether you follow them on Twitter, there's inherently trust us, even if it's not useful, even if it's not, you're trying to learn from them or be them.
[00:42:26] I'm thinking about comedians now. And I trust that they're going to make me laugh. Like that's still trust.
[00:42:33] Allie: [00:42:33] Yeah. I mean that, I would say the heart of trust in essence is definitely consistency and somewhat of a. A niche, I guess, or like a specialization. This is more companies than like individual writers, I would say.
[00:42:49] Um, cause I think writers can ebb and flow based on how they're feeling that day or what they're interested in. So there's definitely like different avenues of audience-building [00:43:00] for different like purposes.
[00:43:04] Alex: [00:43:04] Is there anybody you used to follow, but don't anymore. If you don't want to say, like specifically who you have somebody in your mind.
[00:43:11] Yeah, yeah.
[00:43:13] Allie: [00:43:13] Honestly, it's, maybe I'm more sensitive to it because I just spend all day online. But when people just start to get so blatantly salesy and like, I, in my opinion, they stop writing and this is just, I guess, more right writers. Um, I dunno, I guess it's when they just really start to promote things and sell things and it tends to lose that coffee chat vibe.
[00:43:44] But, you know, you can't blame them. Maybe they created enough of an audience that they want to start making money off of it. I totally respect that, but I don't, it's kind of like influencers, like you remember when influencers were like, actually influencers. They're like, I'm not getting [00:44:00] sponsored. I love this face wash.
[00:44:01] And now it's like, add, add, add, add. It's like, I don't trust you. Like you're getting paid for all this crap. Like, how do I know you actually like it? You know, that's why it's like reviews. Not website reviews, like on third party sites, most of the time. And then people who are like, I'm not getting paid for this.
[00:44:17] I will immediately listen to that because I know that's like, they're genuinely right. Well, it's
[00:44:22] Alex: [00:44:22] like, you lost trust in that. Sorry you cut out. I think we cut out there. Sorry. Um, I think it sounds like you lost trust in them. Like you don't trust that their information is totally with integrity because they're selling things.
[00:44:35] Allie: [00:44:35] It did. The last thing you heard was that like they started doing ads. That part.
[00:44:40] Alex: [00:44:40] Yeah. So basically they started selling, you know, influencers, you trusted their opinions before their curation and recommendations of products, but then when it got too salesy, you started to question like, do they like this product?
[00:44:52] It still, it seems like it comes down to a trust and integrity thing. Yeah. And I
[00:44:56] Allie: [00:44:56] mean, again, it's not, it's not like it's not integrity because they're [00:45:00] making a living. Like they have a very large following, like good for them. But my personal approach is like, If you're, if you're sponsoring six different like products, like, I don't know which one you actually like, you know?
[00:45:13] And when folks are like, I don't like, I'm not paying for this. Like I read a book done in here. It's called the simple path to wealth by JL Collins. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It was like an amazing take on like financial freedom and investing. And he talks all about Vanguard, just like Vanguard left and right.
[00:45:30] And if he says multiple times, he's like, I'm not getting paid for this. I just like it, it works for my family. Guess what I did. I switched my whole Roth to Vanguard, like right after reading it, because I don't know, like, not only did he give valuable information, he obviously walks the walk. He's not just talking to the talk, but he, like, wasn't getting paid for it.
[00:45:48] Which like made me trust that now for those like listening or reading or whatever, and they want to get paid for the audience. Like, I'm not going to stop you. There's definitely value in that too. But.
[00:46:00] [00:45:59] Alex: [00:45:59] There's a weird trade-off though. Yeah, for sure. I think that's a balance that we're probably going to have to discuss on a different article or different podcasts because there is kind of an inherent dichotomy between being completely authentic and selling something.
[00:46:13] But we obviously we're a business we're helping all of our clients with content and they're they're businesses and they need to make money from their content. So I think there's still some,
[00:46:22] Allie: [00:46:22] I'm talking more of individuals, individual audiences still, um, Now I bought things recommended by folks who are getting paid for it.
[00:46:32] It's just, uh, it's, it's just a setting and maybe the mood, but the bigger, the bigger audience following, like the sense of losing trust is it's kind of like when someone it's like the value of your word, you know, like if someone just like recommends everything left and right. Like he's just a yes man, or she, or whatever, it's like, Okay, but what, like, what do you actually like, or what do you actually endorse?
[00:46:57] So there's just like a, a ratio there [00:47:00] of like, if you endorse everything, are you, it's hard to explain, I guess, but then it's like the value of that endorsement goes down.
[00:47:09] Alex: [00:47:09] Yeah. Yeah. You're building up sort of equity in your, your opinion and you, you can withdraw from that account if you like. Promote products.
[00:47:18] Like you can make money from that, but your, your account is your, your equity is lower after that. So you have to like strategically choose when and where to like, sell that goes back to like, I think Gary V's old book, like the jab jab, jab, right hook, which I never read, but I know it's one of those with a tight anyway,
[00:47:35] Allie: [00:47:35] chapter of it.
[00:47:35] Yeah.
[00:47:36] Alex: [00:47:36] Yeah. Oh, so actually, interestingly enough, Gary V is somebody who I used to follow, but don't anymore. And I think that was because I changed. I think, uh, I was really resonant on the hustle message and I was little more naive in terms of like my business sense when I was following him. And after a while I just didn't get as much value.
[00:47:54] So I don't know if he changed per se. So that's an interesting one. I think maybe, you [00:48:00] know, I think you can just like lose interest. That's one case. The integrity thing that you're talking about is probably the reason I've stopped falling. Most of the people that I used to follow that I have stopped following.
[00:48:10] So like Dave Asprey, I, I guess I still look at a little bit of what he's putting out, but, um, I got into Dave Asprey, like all other, um, Uh, tech bros around the time of Bulletproof coffee, because I was looking to search my productivity and the Bulletproof coffee was pretty cool. So I started drinking that and I'm like, Oh, this is, you know, he's onto something.
[00:48:31] So I started reading his blog and going down the rabbit hole of biohacking. But then over the last couple of years, I've seen a lot of questionable information come from Dave. And, uh, I won't say it's wrong, but I don't think he's. One, he's definitely selling a lot. He's getting a lot of affiliate kickbacks and stuff.
[00:48:48] So there's that whole sales pitch thing that you were talking about, but then too, I'm not sure he's an information curator and I didn't totally trust the quality of all the information like I do with examine.com. So I just [00:49:00] found other influencers who I trust more in the nutrition and health space. So that was one where I lost faith and trust and kind of just went elsewhere.
[00:49:08] And then there's others that I've stopped following because they got boring. Because, uh, I just, you know, lost interest in what they were doing. They weren't doing anything new anymore. Like I blink one 82 was my favorite band from childhood and they're still putting out albums, but they're just so dull and so formulaic.
[00:49:26] So
[00:49:26] Allie: [00:49:26] would you rather than have stopped then do bad new
[00:49:30] Alex: [00:49:30] stuff? That's a good question.
[00:49:33] Allie: [00:49:33] That's another, that's another discussion we need to have about like perpetual creation.
[00:49:40] Alex: [00:49:40] I don't think no, I would have, I prefer that they keep going, they can do what they want. They, they deserve to cash into, but I just, for your permission, my, my interest stops though.
[00:49:49] I still, I guess, like, I don't mind their new stuff, but I just, I don't feel it. Does it affect your perspective
[00:49:54] Allie: [00:49:54] on their
[00:49:55] Alex: [00:49:55] old stuff? Not at all.
[00:49:57] Allie: [00:49:57] Okay. That's good. Yeah. I would like to [00:50:00] have a conversation too about like content curators versus creators. And the value of that. And if we have the same amount of trust or following in those folks, as we do the original creators, I've seen so many curators like digests, and it's like, yeah, you have a great knack for finding stuff online, but you didn't create anything new.
[00:50:21] Like I've, I think I followed two digests because they have good stuff. But then as individuals, I don't think I would say I followed them. And then you think about the stuff that they're sharing and those original writers and creators, and you're like, they're too busy creating to do this. So I respect that.
[00:50:40] Alex: [00:50:40] I mean, I'm assuming it's a really good question. Um, cause someone's,
[00:50:43] Allie: [00:50:43] you've seen the rise of digests and you
[00:50:46] Alex: [00:50:46] know, all of this stuff, huge thing right now, newsletters. Yeah. And curation, I think the curators can build a following if they like develop a unique flavor of their own curation and tastes. So I think Tim Ferriss has.
[00:50:58] Kind of a curator at heart. I think [00:51:00] he goes out and his podcast is curation his books, even back to the four hour workweek, that remarkable thing wasn't that you should delegate and leverage and do all that stuff. It was like, he gave all kinds of tools and tactical suggestions and shit. And I think he was curating even back then for our body, same thing.
[00:51:16] He just went out and tested himself. I talk to all these people do that. It's because of curation for online, there is curation. It's actually creation too, though.
[00:51:26] Allie: [00:51:26] No. Yes. I mean, in the book sense, like I'm talking about emails that are just like line item links, but I guess there's value in curation for like a following or traffic, because those folks you shared about give you traffic from their sites or the backlinks or whatever.
[00:51:42] So definitely a strategy to it. But like I just followed the sub stack. I'm very, very like picky with my emails. Like one of my 20, 21 resolutions. Um, But, so it was like a big deal that I followed the sub stock and it's this guy, and I think it's called, Oh man, it had [00:52:00] such a good name, but he wrote a book too.
[00:52:02] It's called daily routines. And he basically goes back through like all kinds of creators, even back to like
[00:52:09] Alex: [00:52:09] Mason clinic or whatever. Maybe do you follow them too? Like daily routines or something like that?
[00:52:15] Allie: [00:52:15] That's his book, but his, his, uh, newsletter. Yes. Subtle maneuvers is what the newsletter is called.
[00:52:22] So first of all, I'm like, that's cool. And every Monday he sends out a curation essentially of like all kinds of daily routines from writers, all kinds of creators, like photographers and stuff. And that is an inherently curious. And like, he's not, he's not created that himself, but he does write about it.
[00:52:40] So there's like a creation, a creation aspect to it, like. He doesn't copy and paste or share other people's articles, but the topic itself, like it's other people's ideas, like other people's routines. Um, but it feels genuine to me so far. And while I followed it for like a day
[00:52:56] Alex: [00:52:56] or so, but he's, he's like, uh, uh, he's like the [00:53:00] Guggenheim, he's like a curator in the sense that like, He creates his own experience.
[00:53:04] That is its own product. Cause like when you said his name, I knew his name. So he's not just like throwing links out there. Like his product is definitely unique. So
[00:53:14] Allie: [00:53:14] think it's like a museum, like museums are curated, but they can create their own. Experience, you
[00:53:21] Alex: [00:53:21] know? Yeah. You still have the vibe .